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New topic. ignition and timing.

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TheJet
TheJet's picture
Ignition

This is the best description of ignition I have read, consistency is the key like everything in the rifle and its setup

The most desirable firing pin strike is one that fires every round with the least amount of hit force, and it hits the same every time. Much of this depends on how free your pin and spring ride inside the bolt/firing pin body. The spring has to be smooth and free of any burs, the inside of the spring hole has to be polished, and free of any burs. The alignment of the pin through the nose of the firing pin body has to be absolutely straight, no binding anywhere. The firing pin cocking piece that rides the ramp for cocking has to be smooth, and the ramp has to have a consistent angle, no lumps or bumps. Last but not least the firing pin must rest up against it's mechanical stop but when fired against a live round must never hit the mechanical stop. One last thing to look at: The firing pin weight head cocking tit must not hit the back of the locking lug grooves when fired. The firing pin cocking tit must have clearance.

Team KAOS
All the gear and no idea

BigStick
BigStick's picture
.

Thanks Ben
I think you have half the Rimfire shooters pulling there bolt apart now including me.
Kim

wally289
wally289's picture
polish bits

Okay for inside polishing I use a battery drill with a very small drill bit covered with a CHUX cloth using the bar polish one of fine grit the green one if the inside is fairly ruff use very fine sand paper of around 1200 grit to start of the process this can also be used on any internal surface that need polishing reason for the drill bit is it holds the paper or cloth extremely well so it can be worked without it coming off
Wally

Wombat

Peter Armstrong Mk1
Guys

Guys
I worked it out 10 years ago that there was some advantage in making sure the firing pin wasn’t rubbing on anything.

The thing to remember is some actions are machined to very close tolerance and just polishing away at everything you could end up with play in areas you don’t want it.

With my Turbo’s I just gave the inside of the bolt a light rub with some 800 wet and dry rapped around a tube. I polished the firing pin up and I do that because anywhere it’s rubbing it will go dull and I can see what areas need work. I’d do this slowly, live fire strip the bolt a little polishing and one took maybe 20 times before I got it right. It is a slow process.

Peter

RBA HoF #1 (2007)

BigStick
BigStick's picture
.

Thank you to Wally and Peter.
I was hoping to get lots of discussion on this as it seems to be important, but as usual the guys on here need some encouragement to get started. I know from the past that there are lots of people reading and appreciate the info but we need the info to give us an idea what to look for and how to fix it..
I can dismantle both falcon bolts but have no idea on any of the others. If any one wants to know how to do falcons then let me know.
Kim

CHRIS-A
Igniton

Men all mechanical actions will have some friction some where
I read a article 30 may be 40 years a go in the sporting shooting magazine
BY Nick Harvey
The German country Krico made a.22 Silhouette rifle I think it was the 600
series called the electrons
electronic ignition micro switch trigger IT run off a 9 Volt I think it may have had safety
problem back them It was extremely actuate I am sure the problem could
be fix 30 to 40 years later

ROCK1

TheJet
TheJet's picture
Electronic triggers would be cool

I am pretty sure that electronic anything is not allowed in the rules.
There is one of the air rifle companies "Thomas" that already have one working pretty well
But the USA team had to put a manuel trigger into the rifles to shoot wrabf for the World titles in 2015

Trigger timing is an interesting topic with rimfire which has barely anything writen about it ,as a matter of fact I couldn't find anything except a video on Bullets and bits
But that didn't really explain a lot of stuff, what is peoples ideas on this ?
As its pretty important on ignition

Team KAOS
All the gear and no idea

CHRIS-A
That a shame Ben

Ben it may be the way of the future triggers with a adjustable micro switches will be the ultimate Just a few thou movement
The ignition system has NO moving parts A electronic charge is sent
to the head of the case
The hole electronic system is in the stock

ROCK1

TheJet
TheJet's picture
Falcon Springs

Kim how did the new springs go in the Falcon action?
Of course I am very interested in this as I have two such actions.
The Falcon actions are now getting older and we will need to find replacement parts.
Love to hear what you found out

Team KAOS
All the gear and no idea

BigStick
BigStick's picture
Springs

Hi Ben.
I haven't got the springs yet. A friend of a friend thing. There is probably a demand for them if they are obtainable. It would be easier to get one big order rather than lots of small orders.
Kim

wally289
wally289's picture
Springs

Kim I would be interested in springs but not for a Falcon . I would need them for a SAKO 22 MODEL P72 and an ANSCHUTZ MODEL 64 MSR maybe we could do a mixed up order would be better freight wise at least That's if we can get them that is
wally

Wombat

BigStick
BigStick's picture
Springs

Wally I think you can buy anschuts springs locally. Potter firearms. Not sure about sako
Kim

wally289
wally289's picture
springs

thanks Kim i'll jump on that start of play next week any clues as for the Sako
wally

Wombat

Micky T
Micky T's picture
It's all about timing.....lol

Hi Ben, there is a fair bit out there on the web about trigger timing and how to go about it. A lot of it is in different forums, you just need to search thru the posts to find it.
There was a good post about setting the triggers up on Falcon actions sometime ago but I just forget which forum it was on.
I will say that there really wasn't any reason to touch the trigger timing on my Mod 1 Falcon as it was pretty well perfect from the get go but I do understand that not every action is perfect.
Cheers Mick

RFBR HOF#1 BR SCORE HOF#7
Robin
Spring

Hi i have always used sako p94s firing pin springs in my falcon actions, they need to shortened to suit but work very well. Robin.

TheJet
TheJet's picture
Thanks guys

I am in for a couple of springs for the Falcon action if someone is doing a large order
Thanks Mick but unless I am looking on the wrong forums I have checked Jerry Stillers and Bill Calfees forums with luck
I have had a really good response on private message from a top shooter in the USA which I have checked my rifles with
Plus Sully and Digs let me know their thoughts on the subject
There are many on here with comprehensive knowledge, I would be bold enough to say Mick yourself would be one of those that could help on this subject

Great thread Kim

Team KAOS
All the gear and no idea

Micky T
Micky T's picture
Ben

Ben,
I have found the forum in which I was referring to. It's actually a quite informative thread and will require time to digest it all. Also the 2 forums you spoke of are great for info but don't have it all if you know what I mean.
Anyways here is the link, post 21 is about the Falcon.
http://www.rimfirecentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=834634&page=2

Cheers Mick

RFBR HOF#1 BR SCORE HOF#7
TheJet
TheJet's picture
Thank you

Thanks Mick your bloods worth bottling
Funny thing is I am the bloke that told Kenny about pulling action apart and cleaning it up
Kenny is a friend of mine and we meet up at the Triple crown earlier this year
I had completely forgotten about this thread

Team KAOS
All the gear and no idea

BigStick
BigStick's picture
Photo

Thanks Mick.
I can't get the photos to work and without them its French to me.
Any ideas?
Kim

BigStick
BigStick's picture
New topic

Ben suggested I change the heading so it would be easier to search in the future.
Kim

TheJet
TheJet's picture
Trigger timing

This is about as good a description as I have ever read on this subject

Trigger timing is the hand off from the cocking piece to the trigger sear/transfer bar. Ideally one wants the hand off to occur at the very top of the ramp. e.g. when you lift the bolt handle all the way up you and close it you want the cocking to continue all the way to the top, but not to continue when you are closing the bolt. Note: it is possible to have about 3/4 cocking on opening and the final on closing. Normally, not thought to be a good thing. Raise the bolt and watch the firing pin weight head if you see the weight head go slightly forward when closing the bolt you don't have your timing at the ideal point. All of this can be adjusted with the trigger hangar.

This description sure helped me understand I had a problem but remember if you have work done on your rifle it must be by a gunsmith by law. I did
At least you now can check if you have a problem. Peter made a great point earlier that tolerances are set by design for every thing to work properly as one thing effects another thing etc

Team KAOS
All the gear and no idea

BigStick
BigStick's picture
.

Good one Ben.
Kim

Micky T
Micky T's picture
Photos

Sorry Kim but it seems Photo bucket has gotten greedy and ruined it for everyone. I guess most photos will be lost now which is a real shame. There is one way to see some of the photos as I have found. Unfortunately in what order or where those photos fit in to the thread is anyone's guess.
Do a Google search on "Ignition/timing/whatever rimfirecentral" then just go to Images and the first few rows are some of the photos from the thread.
Cheers Mick

RFBR HOF#1 BR SCORE HOF#7
Micky T
Micky T's picture
Spring Spring Spring

Guys,
Read this on another forum.

He was working with a “dot” rifle – a .22 LR match rifle that really stacked bullets into little piles at 50 yards and beyond. With one lot of ELEY Tenex, it produced consistent “bughole” groups at 50, but with another, selected lot of Tenex, similar groups were regularly ruined by single, vertical fliers that did not appear in other rifles. Rather than spending days burning up expensive, select ammunition looking for “magic lots”, he contacted a well-respected rimfire gunsmith and explained the situation.

Without so much as batting an eye, the highly-experienced ‘smith tore into the rifle’s action, and quickly found the cause(s) of the problem. He discovered a demonstrably weak firing pin spring, plus a chip out of the face of the firing pin where it contacted the cartridge rim.

After replacing and tuning the offending parts, the rifle immediately began shooting tiny, bughole groups with the previously “unacceptable” lot of Tenex. Centerfire rifles can also benefit from ensuring positive, consistent ignition. A wise riflesmith is literally worth his weight in gold!

Link to the full story http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2016/03/vertical-fliers-poor-ignitio...

RFBR HOF#1 BR SCORE HOF#7
BigStick
BigStick's picture
Six

Six contributed to this topic. I don't know all about Rimfire yet and I was hoping to get lots of info from the knowledgeable people out there.
I guess some don't want to share, that's ok too, BUT we share our knowledge and the world becomes a better place.
Kim

Micky T
Micky T's picture
Same old

Kim it's the same old reason not many contribute these days. That is being ridiculed for sharing. Although 6 ain't too bad and the current subject is not to played with if you have no idea in what you're doing. Sometimes the best advice is find a gunsmith that can build a winning Rimfire and get him to work on it.
I will add that if one wants to check out how their ignition is going then do a firing pin penetration test on 10 cases. You will need some special gear to do it but it's not hard to do. Although IMHO it doesn't always prove that there is a problem with the ignition as it could be slightly out of spec and not cause any problems with accuracy. I do believe that if it's all over the place then yes it would be a area to check out.
Honestly though the one topic that would make us all better shooters and fix a hell of a lot of our problems is " When is the perfect time to pull the trigger"
Cheers Mick

RFBR HOF#1 BR SCORE HOF#7
BigStick
BigStick's picture
.

Thanks Mick.
How do you do a penitation test on a bolt that doesn't have the firing pin exposed like the first model falcon.
Do you just measure the indent in the fired case?
I'm thinking a dial indicator on the exposed firing pin but how do you mount it?
Kim

wally289
wally289's picture
same old thing

thanks Mikky T I like some others try to comment on things but my time in the sport is only a few years and gaining knowledge all the time and these forums are helping no end I can’t imagine why some would ridicule others for sharing information as long as names were not passed I don’t see a problem with that and I have done so in past to those that don’t comment it’s a shame as I am sure that your wealth of knowledge should be passed on also as you say don’t try anything unless you know what your about but for those of us a bit further north there is not a lot of gunsmiths around with the knowledge about benchrest rifles there is a couple and we do go to them a fair bit but there only interested in the shooting now as there getting on but thay do help whenever you ask and that is the thing you have to ask same as on here we ask and hope someone will try and pass on the information
Thanks to those
Wally

Wombat

TheJet
TheJet's picture
Measuring indent in case

Picture shown of Bill Calfees system of mounting a dial gauge to the back scope block and a piece of sheet metal to the end of the firing pin

But as Kim asks how to measure if you don't have an exposed firing pin ?
Roy Mcarthy was selling a dial gauge set up on a stand with small lengths of barrel one for rim thickness the other for ogive length at one of the shoots at Coffs
I just used Roy's gauge by setting the side of the rim away from the indent on zero then measuring the bottom of the indent. you will probably have trouble trying to fit end of dial gauge into indent on most actions but on a Turbo it punches a pretty large indent so small bearing on end rolls into it.

I am not a gunsmith and I know that when the case is fired it can distort bottom of case but short of that it does give a pretty good indication

Bill Calfee talks about a 22 thousandths of an inch indent but by my measuring I am only getting around 0.015 think that is how you write 15 thousandths
But it is getting them pretty regularly out of 150 think about 140 were 0.015 with some 0.014 and a 0.016 cause on Eley but Lapua was 0.017
Think that is because rim thickness is thicker on Lapua ammo
The fly in the ointment is the brass ,is it all the same hardness ?
Plus mine were measured on brass after they had been fired, Bill Calfees system is I think on once fired brass so my measurements and his are like comparing apples and oranges.

But at least it gives you some idea

Team KAOS
All the gear and no idea

TheJet
TheJet's picture
Roys Gauge

This is Roys gauge sorry the dial gauge point is a small bearing and in this picture is in the indent of the firing pin.
I couldn't put two photos on last post
Kim this will work for you I think

Team KAOS
All the gear and no idea

BigStick
BigStick's picture
.

Thanks Ben
I'll give it a go.
Kim

Peter Armstrong Mk1
Kim

Kim
To measure firing pin travel on actions without an exposed firing pins, use the shaft on the end of calipers and use it like a depth micrometer. Put the end of the calipers on the tang and push the shaft up the keyway until it touches the firing pin and just index off the tang.

As far as judging ignition I find it better to look at fired cases. If you’re ignition is a little limited there will be grains left in the case if it’s hitting to hard there will be scorching on the inside of the case, what you’re looking for is the inside of a fired case to be a very clean.

Peter

RBA HoF #1 (2007)

BigStick
BigStick's picture
Peter

The falcon has a shroud around the firing pin and nowhere to measure from.
I might start cutting open some cases after I measure the indent via Bens method
Kim

CHRIS-A
Rim thicknes

DIFFERENT rim thickness Different [ indentation depth]
So do you check the indentation on a case that has no powder and no projectile

ROCK1

BigStick
BigStick's picture
Chris-A

I'm trying to check the firing pin penetration on a case when it fires. If it's not consistent then there might be some drag or friction in the bolt causing the inconsistency.
Kim

CHRIS-A
rim and head expansion

THE head will expansion and move back when firing a live round it may not give a true indication
Use a unloaded case and rotate it 6 or more times and check the indentation

ROCK1

Peter Armstrong Mk1
Kim

Kim
You measure off the back part of the firing pin that rides the the keyway, it’s part of the firing pin and moves exactly the same amount as the rest of the firing pin. This way works on most guns and yes I’ve done it on a Falcon.

Peter

RBA HoF #1 (2007)

BigStick
BigStick's picture
OK

Now I've got it.
Kim

BigStick
BigStick's picture
Point

Ben is the ball point small enough to get to the bottom of the indent? Kim

CHRIS-A
Check the triger for under travel

under travel

ROCK1

TheJet
TheJet's picture
Kim

If the ball didn't get to the bottom then the lapua ammo would probably read the same, though I am not certain it will get to the bottom of the Falcon action foot print
Would test it for you but seems as Peter has come up with an alternative plan of attack.

Team KAOS
All the gear and no idea

Robin
2500x ignition looks pretty

2500x ignition looks pretty good .

TheJet
TheJet's picture
Robin

Do you own a 2500x ?
I was wondering how one would test, they are a very cool bit of gear

Team KAOS
All the gear and no idea

BigStick
BigStick's picture
2500x

Ben there are about 7 locally and sadly I don't have one of them.
The grass is always greener, you know the rest.
Kim

Micky T
Micky T's picture
2500X

Yes they are a very cool bit of kit. The ignition on them is slick as. IMHO they're the best action on the market right out of the box. With the current single IRB target record of 250.23 held by a 2500X action here in OZ they're up there with the best.
Mick

RFBR HOF#1 BR SCORE HOF#7
Robin
2500x

Sorry i attempted to post a photo of 2500x ignition but couldn't get it to load .and no sadly i don't own one.

TheJet
TheJet's picture
Holeshot Trident

Well this is as far as mine has got yet and to be honest I can't stop thinking about it
This is Brents 2500x action in my stock he has built me in the USA
Jerry is going to put it all together for me and then of course the age to get it from there to here but it is all happening
The best rifle I have ever shot was one of these at the Triple crown smooth as silk and man was that rifle accurate

Team KAOS
All the gear and no idea

BigStick
BigStick's picture
.

That's a beautiful piece of wood.
Kim

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