Hi NSW members,
The information that was put forward by the Chairman Mr Billinghurst, Mr Sori and Ms Brummell in relation to the Silverdale range attempting to apply pressure by rule changes to Benchrest Shooters to leave Silverdale range is just not true. Any issues or perceived issues can be dealt with by consultative negotiation and i intend to assist Silverdale range with information sharing.
I have had an in depth conversation with James Walsh the President and he is supplying me written confirmation of SSAA Sydney branches intention to support benchrest shooting at Silverdale.
Issues raised by members of the committee are totally against what the Sydney Branch president has said. As a consequence of this miss representation of the truth clear and transparent post will be supplied on this forum for all shooters to read and they can make up their own minds with the correct information about future shoots at this location.
During my conversation with Mr Walsh he was very pro active and even made reference to assisting with works to benefit short range benchrest shooting at Silverdale at branch cost.
Will keep you all posted.
Regards Les Fraser
Hi Les,
What you are saying is correct to a certain point, Billinghurst has not taken the shoots away, the B/R shooters have, they voted this way, but you cannot blame the b/r shooters they are just sick to their guts of the way they are spoken to just about every shoot there is a shit fight about what we are doing wrong it is not a happy place to shoot any more, no one likes to be called cxxts in front of other shooters for what shooting benchrest! that is just one point.
Silverdale was one of the best ranges in the world ( for its size ) just ask the shooters, but now the shooters have given up and
moved on, there has been heaps said and done the above is just a litte of the trouble there, but this guy could NOT do what he he has done without some backing from the committee members!
regards,
Barry Warwick
Barry
Dave Billinghurst and Steve sori are on the committee that controls Silver-dale range. It should be and is the shooters choice about where ranges are hosted. What I am saying is information needs to be correct for shooters to make these important choices.
Cheers Les
Just to keep shooters informed Sydney Branch president has sent me a letter outlining some of the questions i put to him last Friday and there a remarkable difference in what we were told at the meeting at Silverdale and what Sydney branch actually have said and done. I have asked for Mr Walsh's permission to post the contents of the letter, as soon as he does I will post it and keep you all informed. This will allow shooters the opportunity to have correct information to base decisions on.
cheers Les
below is the letter that has been drafted and sent by James Walsh Sydney SSAA president. Please read.....
Hi Les
Thanks for your time on the phone on Friday.
Just to reiterate the formal position of the SSAA Sydney Branch Committee.
SSAA Sydney is committed to ensuring benchrest is an active discipline at Silverdale. Over the last few years we have made many suggestions to combat decreasing numbers and foster increased participation and the growth of the discipline. Some suggestions have been open and try shooting days as well as the re-establishment of hunter class in order to attract those who don’t have expensive benchrest rifles. We have been repeatedly told that there is no interest to do this. As recent as our last meeting, we have been pushing for a fly and bench try shooting day and we were told that ‘no one is interested in it, all the shooters want to do is shoot themselves’.
We have also been told that benchrest shooters no longer want to shoot at Silverdale due to the onerous restrictions placed on them by the SSAA Sydney Branch. I wish to reiterate the restrictions that we have asked for as we do not see these as onerous.
1. A range officer is to be on the firing line at all times including target changes.
2. Empty chamber indicators or a cleaning rod with a brightly coloured handle are to be used whilst any rifle is on the bench when the range is closed.
3. Range lights and/or flags are to be used.
4. No handling of firearms when the range is closed except as above.
We have even agreed that in order to speed up detail changes, that the incoming detail can bring their rifles to the line while the range is closed.
We have also been told that some matches can no longer be run at the range due to time constraints. FYI, as a result of this, we have approached the council for extended opening hours to run competitions. We are also undertaking a sound monitoring exercise to ensure that we are in line with the EPA guidelines and requirements for those extended hours. We were also told again that even given the extending hours, people didn’t want to travel to Silverdale and by moving competitions to Coffs Harbour, the event would attract shooters from Queensland.
I suggested at the last committee meeting that we purchase new benchrest target equipment to make set up faster and more efficient. We have also asked for suggestions on how we can make target changes less labour intensive in order to make the matches run smoother, none of these suggestions have been welcomed. We have even offered to purchase or have made, new target systems and equipment for benchrest. The targets are ageing and we also need to ensure that all bullet strikes are hitting the stop butts and not falling short. This would give us the opportunity to also address the issues with having hard objects down range (like the battery trolley) whilst competitions are taking place. We are prepared to invest heavily in the discipline and this has been made known to the representatives on our committee.
I would also like to categorically state that it was not a decision of the Sydney Branch committee to move the competitions to Coffs Harbour, and in fact this decision was met with frustration and angst by the Committee. As a result, at the last meeting we decided that should the Benchrest discipline committee move the registered matches away from Silverdale then SSAA Sydney would immediately schedule its own matches. They may not be sanctioned but either way there will be Benchrest competitions available at Silverdale. SSAA Sydney would however like to see the range utilised to capacity and have asked whether the range can be shared during matches with either pistol or metallic silhouette shooters. We have also asked about having general shooters who don’t necessarily have a benchrest rifle who may want to take part being allowed to shoot or join in and have been told this is not possible.
Regarding Andy Mallen and the continuing rumours of his insistence that there will be no benchrest shooting at Silverdale, I will formally state at this time that Andy is an employee and as such will do as he is instructed by the SSAA Sydney Branch Committee.
It is disappointing that there are still constant mistruths and rumours coming out of the benchrest community. SSAA Sydney has and will continue to do whatever we can to accommodate the discipline, however we have been told that there will be no flexibility from the benchrest discipline. If this continues, it will eventually leave our hands tied.
I would like to formally invite you and your shooting colleagues to attend our next committee meeting on Wednesday 26th October at 7pm, Bankstown Sports Club to address your concerns directly with the Branch Committee. We would like to put this constant battle to bed once and for all. Please advise who is able to attend the meeting.
Regards
James
James Walsh
PRESIDENT
____________________________
http://www.ssaansw.org.au/images/logo.png
Sporting Shooters Association of Australia
SSAA (NSW) Sydney Branch Inc.
Very interesting.
Kim
"We have also asked about having general shooters who don’t necessarily have a benchrest rifle who may want to take part being allowed to shoot or join in and have been told this is not possible."
This doesn't make sense. As far as I'm aware, as long as you meet weight criteria you can shoot what ever you like.
It's either a misunderstanding or a deliberate misrepresentation designed to gain sympathy from the general shooter who may not be informed, tarnishing the benchresters as some sort of elitist closed club. It's simply not true.
John you are correct - as long as the rifle meets the specifications of the class being contested, any SSAA member may enter a competition.
At this years BR Nationals at Monarto we had at least one shooter entered with what was essentially a hunting rifle.
They simply wanted to enjoy the experience of shooting at National level, and I was more than happy to oblige them.
John, not only is the quoted statement not true, but there have been occasions where competitors did in fact, compete with non BR rifles, and the results are on the web for all to see. Additionally, as anyone who has read the rule book would know, there is a provision for people to actually use a rifle that doesn't satisfy the class requirements and still compete. When i turned up for my first match at Silverdale many years ago with my Sako bunny rifle i was made welcome and received nothing but encouragement and help, something i still see to this day when juniors or new shooters are competing, or even when experienced shooters are struggling.
I would like to reply to Mr Walsh’s letter on the formal position of SSAA Sydney Branch sent to Mr Fraser and I may be incorrect in some of the answers as this is only my perception of what is happening at Silverdale.
For some time there has been an underlining animosity towards Benchrest Shooting and Shooters at the Silverdale Range and if it is unpleasant to go there and compete then people won’t go. I’m sure James would not know this as I have not seen James at any time when a Benchrest competition has been on. I think he would have been invited at some time. I have seen a person that I presume was a committee member making it very unpleasant, taking sound readings inside the reloading room that would have no bearing on anything, taking photos of shooters setting up, and photos of my personal things up in the pistol area where I camp when attending Silverdale range. There were also comments about the flags being in front of the firing line and their construction generally making it very unpleasant for all.
This is why the Shooters have voted not to attend any more events at Silverdale. As to the moving of events to Coffs Harbour and Canberra, these ranges put up their hands to run the events no longer held at Silverdale. I don’t think there was any consideration given that it would be closer for Queensland shooters to attend.
The competitors have embraced the chamber indicators of varying types at Silverdale but to have someone walk the line seemingly to check this only added to the feeling of animosity towards shooters, although many would question the enforcement of this. Although it is not in the rule books, at all the ranges I have attended to shoot Benchrest, no bolts or ammunition are allowed to be placed on the bench until directed to after the target crew have returned behind the firing line. In the rule book section 9.2 no ammunition or bolts are to be placed in the action until the “Commence Fire” command also under the same rule after the “Cease Fire” “Remove Bolts from Rifles”.
We are, and have to be, very safety conscious; our sport relies on safety to be allowed to continue.
To some matches not being able to be run because of time constraint I would have to conclude that this statement would possibly have been made because it would seem we were not to be allowed to handle (setup) our gear at Silverdale while the target crew was forward of the firing line. That alone would make it impossible to run matches, especially Experimental / Unlimited within the Silverdale time constraints. At worst it would add 30 minutes and at best 20 minutes to each detail. This times 10 would be at worst 5 hours extra and at best 3 hours 20 minutes. Can this amount of extra shooting time be added to the Silverdale range times?
As this situation hasn’t in my recollection happened in the past I can only assume that past Committees have envisaged the problem and consulted and sought Council’s approval.
Regarding your point (4) the handling of firearms and setting up between details this had been dealt with years ago and sanctioned by the National body of SSAA, which is when the above statement relating to “Bolts and ammunition on the benches” was introduced.
As far as I know all the ranges I have competed on, Range Lights or Flags are in use so I can’t see the relevance of this statement.
Regarding manufacturing new target frames. If Sydney Branch Committee can come up with a design to fit within the rules and also the constraints of the range then that would be to the betterment of all. It is always of interest to see new designs that can be manufactured and if this will make it easier setting up and moving the frames, I for one am all for it. The shooters themselves are the main people setting up and moving the frames. I understand the current target frames were fully refurbished for the running of the WBC held at Silverdale in 2013, also a new drive system for the moving backers was manufactured at this time. To the “Battery Trolley” it would technically be classed as a hard object but for it to be struck it would have to be deliberately aimed at as it is set up some distance from the last target posted. No doubt this would be dealt with under Rule 2.4.4, that is part of every SSAA Rule Book relating to unsafe practices.
I do not want to cast aspersions at other Disciplines in shooting, (we are all shooters) but do not the Silhouette shooters actually shoot at Hard Metal targets?
The comment regarding the changing of targets being labour intensive I would have to say the target crew at Silverdale are very efficient in what they have to do. For most of the shoots there are only two people changing targets who know exactly what has to be done and have a system worked out. The same amount of work has to be done no matter where you shoot Group Benchrest.
Regarding the use of the words “General Shooters not being able to shoot or join in” this is not true. All shooters are welcome to compete provided they are financial members of SSAA and hold a current Firearms Licence/Permit or compete under P650 provisions and if their firearm complies with the weight restrictions. If not they can shoot out of class. I think this would be referring to General Shooting taking place on the same Range and Firing Line at the same time Benchrest competitions are being conducted. This is not permitted under Rule 10.5
I’m sure the shoots could return to Silverdale. It is up to the Sydney Committee to fix what I perceive as a toxic Silverdale and find out what are really the causes and the things happening behind the scenes when Benchrest matches are run. It is up to the Sydney Committee to thoroughly investigate and not go on the innuendos without a thorough investigation and act on the results of the investigations. Mr Fraser mentioned there are two on the Sydney Branch committee from Benchrest but if the other members of Committee are not listening to the concerns raised about Silverdale. What can be done?
I would also like to add I wrote a letter to the Sydney Branch Committee dated 4th July 2016 but unfortunately forgot to add my postal address but did include my phone number where I could be contacted. I did receive a phone call from the Executive Officer Pamela Reeves to get the omitted details possibly for a reply to my letter. It is now the 21st October 2016 and I still have not had the courtesy from SSAA Sydney Branch of a reply, to a letter of which the content was related to Silverdale.
I wait in anticipation.
I have never met with Mr Walsh but have to add with all the good intentions of Mr Walsh’s comments on his committee’s suggestions about helping Benchrest at Silverdale the alarm bells should have been sounding a long time before my letter in July and the shooters decision in August. I can only add that it looks like he is trying to shut the gate after the horse has bolted.
Too little too late!!
Hi keith,
A well addressed letter listing issues and items that have not been done. With your permission i would like to table some of the relevant issue you have raised at tomorrow nights meeting of the Sydney Branch. Every shooting discipline and shooters have issues that we need to work through to come out of the other end with a workable outcome. For Silverdale i do not think it is over at all. Infact Mr Walsh's letter is a document with provision for hope that the sport can grow into a relevant competition on the Silverdale Range.
I for one was against the shoots moving off site from Silverdale and i wasn't prepared to just take what Dave Billinghurst said as correct and i am certainly glad i did because it is completely the opposite of what is contained in Mr Walsh's letter.
I see Silverdale is an opportunity to move forward from historical issues and get some clear guidance of what Bench Rest shooters can expect from the Range.
cheers Les
Hi Les
Perhaps you could also take up with James the paragraph relating to the rumours about the insistence there will be no Benchrest shooting at Silverdale. Well guess what there is no more Benchrest shooting at Silverdale!!
Hi all a successful meeting last night at the SSAA Sydney Branch meeting with some very positive outcomes from the President James Walsh. The committee WANTS benchrest shooting on the range and is going to assist with the growth of the sport financially and with ongoing support. A significant number of issues were tabled in an Executive Summary Document i wrote and submitted to the committee outlining key issues and making recommendations. I will post this on the thread for the shooters to see. Keith Dowel raised some concerns over access issues and James gave an appropriate response directing this issue be rectified this week.
I feel that the Silverdale range is NOT lost to bench rest shooting I am confident that the sport will grow and once again be a premier shooting discipline i may not be your delegate but i can certainly raise issue and assist in getting the shoots back to Silverdale.
cheers Les
Hi all please read this is what i put to the SSAA committee last night.....
Executive Summary
Members of the board, Committee members, ladies and gentlemen, fellow shooters. I would like to take this opportunity to thank Mr Walsh for his offer to speak at tonight’s meeting regarding Benchrest Disciplines at Silverdale SSAA range.
A lot of information has been gathered prior to this meeting in search of the reasons behind the perceived on going matters affecting Benchrest shooting at the range. A common element of concern is the apparent miss information being relayed to the shooters and the SSAA Sydney Branch Committee.
I would like the committee to review the attached letter from Mr Walsh in relation to perceptions and versions of events that have taken place in the lead up to this meeting. Members of this committee are free to ask questions at the end of my presentation and hopefully we can move forward with actionable items.
Some Points been raised in Mr Walsh’s letter I will deal with in dot point form.
• Open and try shooting days and re-establishment of Hunter class:
o As the SSAA has an official rule book pertaining to classes that can be shot under the rule book this needs to be answered by direct reference to the Official SSAA rule book. SSAA members who have the correct accreditation can participate in these events.
o Open and try Shooting days- this is a progressive step and should be done as part of the event calendar at Silverdale. This type of activity has been done at other SSAA venues in NSW. Batemans Bay held a tutorial weekend at the SSAA range which covered reloading, set up, course of fire, positioning and placement of gear to conduct matches. This was an extremely useful practice to encourage new competitors to the sport.
• Benchrest shooters no longer want to shoot at Silverdale.
o This is NOT true !! The information that has been put to the Benchrest shooting Community by Mr Billinghurst and Mr Sori is that Benchrest is no longer wanted on the range. This statement was used in the latest NSW Meeting chaired by Mr Billinghurst. A number of shooters including myself stated we did not want shoots to be moved off site. A Vote then ensued and the majority due to miss information voted to move these shoots.
o I was advocating that the range is set up for Bench Rest shooting and there is no need to move shoots to Coffs Harbour as this would mean even further decline of the Benchrest Discipline.
• Range Restrictions.
o A Range officer is to be on the firing line at all times including target changes.
Will be complied with
o Empty Chamber indicators or a cleaning rod with a brightly coloured handle are to be used whilst any rifle is on the bench when the range is closed.
Chamber indicators are used at many other ranges and are simple and effect methods of identifying if a firearm is rendered safe.
o Range Lights and /or flags are to be used
This is also a well supported method of identifying a safe to proceed range. Many other ranges also employ these same methods.
o No Handling of firearms when the range is closed except as above.
Although it is not in the rule books, at all the ranges I have attended to shoot Benchrest, no bolts or ammunition are allowed to be placed on the bench until directed to after the target crew have returned behind the firing line. This is also common practice at ranges around Australia and is widely recognised and complied with.
• Extended hours to conduct shoots.
o The SSAA rule book has in place range commands that must be followed to ensure the match can be a registered Match under the rule book. If the rules for that match cannot be followed then the match cannot be registered.
o I recognised that Mr Walsh has stated that representation has been made to council about extending the time frames with the local council and this step is appreciate and will ensure the match can go ahead as defined in the SSAA rule book.
• Purchase of new Benchrest Target equipment.
o This is a very welcomed approach to the sport and is a clear demonstration to the commitment by SSAA Sydney Branch to the sport.
o I would ask the branch move forward with this, and I am happy to assist with a submission that provides clear guidance for this equipment.
• Move shoots to Coffs Harbour.
o This proposal was put up by NSW chairman Dave Billinghurst. Mr Billinghurst stated after reading an email (yet to be seen) from the Sydney Executive Officer in respect of conditions observed at Benchrest competitions at Silverdale.
o This email then became argumentative about the issues related to the range and the perceived restrictions placed on shooters. Shooters with this information then took this to a vote. There was opposition to this motion with the information supplied.
• Coady Classic move to ACT.
o This was discussed but no motion or vote was put to the floor. This move has taken place and it is to run in conjunction with the PRSC in ACT in November 2016. This move to this venue has been done by the Chair Mr Billinghurst. – As there was no proposer, seconder or vote recorded, I do not believe this move is valid.
• Range Management;
o A significant number of issues have been raised in relation to the Range Manager and how perceptions have caused angst amongst shooters. One such event involved two shooters who had travelled from South Australia to participate in the NSW Match at Silverdale. On the Sunday night both shooters were asked to leave the range and were told that there is no camping on the range. Since 1988 a very well and respected SSAA and Australian representative has been camping on this range without issue. To turn these shooters out like this does not foster good relationships and news of these types of issues travel fast in the shooting community.
Recommendations:
A number of significant matters need to be addressed to stop the flow of miss information to the shooters who support these integral disciplines of the SSAA. It is clear that information and personal agenda’s have contributed to the current situation between SSAA Benchrest Shooters and the Silverdale Range.
Silverdale Range.
1/ A working party be approved to make recommendations to the Sydney Branch Committee regarding all related issues pertaining to Benchrest shooting at Silverdale. Issues raised by Sydney Executive be examined in detail, further consultation be carried out via group email between the Sydney Branch SSAA executive and the working party addressing issues and subsequent recommendations.
2/ A Grievance resolution process put in place to deal with issues in a transparent and consultative manner which encourages professional relationships between shooters, range management and the Executive of Sydney Branch SSAA.
3/ A letter be drafted to the NSW President Mr Paul NcNab asking that an extra ordinary meeting of Benchrest Shooters be called to ensure that the correct information is put to NSW Members regarding range usage at Silverdale. The current information before the NSW members is not correct and appropriate procedure was not followed at the previous meeting. The movement of recognised shoots away from Silverdale has not properly been motioned on or voted.
4/ At this meeting, NSW shooters need to be given all the information, and allowed time to debate and ask questions. Then vote on the motions that are appropriately raised & seconded. NSW shooters also need to be given the opportunity to elect delegates to represent them and chair their committee.
4/ All recommendations and actions affecting Benchrest be need to be completely transparent. These can be posted on the Sydney Branch website for all shooters to see. This does not breech confidentiality as the only content would be standard orders or suggested methodology for improvement to the sport and the complex.
5/ Camping be designated on the range in a formal document that has a fee structure that is consistent with other ranges. Most ranges charge a nominal fee of $10 per night per person.
In Summary, I suggest that there is misleading information being propagated that has the potential to undermine the longevity of Silverdale range being used for benchrest competition. This is also compounded up by a lack of procedural fairness in decisions and a total lack of transparency by the current chair and delegates. Decisions are made by a select few and would appear to suit personal agendas rather than the shooters of NSW as a whole. Some decisions do not have proposers, seconders and a vote, others do. Mr Billinghurst appears to do whatever suits him or his advisors at the time with no consistent procedures followed. I urge you all as members to get involved, consider your representation and stand up for what you want. I will be there cap in hand ready to help in any way you would like me to. Thank you for your time here tonight and I look forward to a positive future for our sport and this range.
Just a small point. The two main ranges apart from Silverdale that I shoot comps at don't charge for camping. One even includes breakfast and lunch in the entry fee. I think $10 is a further burden on shooters, some of whomb struggle with rising costs of ammo and fuel
Kim
I think ten dollars is real fair for a hot shower fully equipped kitchen, dining room and tele and air con some one has to pay
for the electricity, we all struggle some way in this shooting sport, when John was there he would throw in a barbeque pork
dinner ( out of his own pocket ) for all the shooters, complaining about ten bucks for the above is just bloody lousy to say the
least, I know a lot has been said here about bench rest shooters we are all red necks and all sorts of vile names by some,
but Les and the SBC are at least trying to fix a problem that we have, a bad problem that has no interest of us using
Silverdale range, lets at least try and just bloody shoot our comps.
Barry
I've been bloody lousy for a long time!!!
I just thought if you were trying to encourage shooters to come back, then free camping might help. It won't hurt.
Kim
What a total waste time this thread was. This whole Silverdale thing makes me mad so many people have put there lives into this range and where are we now. NSW turn for Nats in 2019 where the hell will it be.
One guess!!!
Was I right Kim?
Team KAOS
All the gear and no idea
I was thinking Coffs. But Newcastle could be an option.
The range is usually closed over Easter anyway, so this would not interfere with regular range hours and would be extra money in the piggy bank.
Rob.
BB Administrator